In a previous post I mentioned my wife and I foster a little girl. She has siblings so we try to get together with them every so often outside of the normal visits that are required by law. This weekend we went to Marvin’s Marvelous Mechanical Museum in Farmington Hills. Now our daughter is only 2 years old so many of the items in this museum were too large for her to play on; however, they did have some children’s rides and a couple of games that she could experience.
Here are a few pictures of the place just before people started to arrive. As you can see there is an amazing amount of things just to look at. Ultimately this place resembles an old style arcade; although the prices are nothing of the such.
The games were actually pretty expensive for what was in there. They have a really good array of pinball machines though. Pinball, for one ball, was $1.00. If you wanted to play a standard game it was $2.00 for three balls. The games are in really good condition though. This specific Pinball machine “Abra-ca-Dabra” is from 1975. I had to take a picture of it because of how well it has been maintained. Granted it isn’t as fun as the newer ones, it was still really nice to play it.
There are a bunch of signs hanging from the walls and ceiling but one caught my eye. They also have a “plane train”, which is a bunch of planes suspended from the ceiling on a track. When it works the planes “fly” through the building. It wasn’t working when we were there, but it was quite amazing to see all of the different types of planes that were hanging up there.
This appears that it might be a good place to throw a birthday party for “tweens” but I really didn’t see a kitchen so you might have to bring in your own food. They sold drinks and popcorn, but I didn’t see much else or how it could be cooked. They also run the games on the ticket scheme. You play and you win tickets. Which they have a bunch of prizes for…mostly candy and the standard trinkets and trash. On another note: I was fortunate enough to be able to park right next to the main entrance as they also don’t have a changing table in their incredibly small restroom. I had to take the baby out to the car and change her in the back seat.
As for the games, there are plenty of pretty good games here. They have some good classics, as well as some of the newer, games. They had two “roller coaster” type games that children can sit in and watch a short movie on the screen and be shaken by the moving seat. My daughter liked that because there were things happening and that she could experience. For a place to take your kids for some good gaming fun I give this place a 7 out of 10. It isn’t a bad place and I would suggest going, if for nothing else, just to take a look at everything that is in the building.
Just like us (people in their 50’s), the older the better. The phrase “They just don’t make ‘em like they used to.” is fitting for this discussion. Cartridges are the equivalent of a nice hard plastic safe for gaming software. The entire program is contained in one area whereas DVD’s have the data laid out across an extremely fragile surface. Granted we used to have to blow the dust out of the cart but that usually got it to work correctly. With DVD’s and Blu-Ray discs one little scratch and the game is ruined.
Needless to say with age comes a conspiracy theory (or two). I think this is done by design so that we go out and purchase more games. I still have most of the cartridge games I grew up with. I did, unfortunately, sell my original Nintendo Entertainment System. I only had 26 game cartridges with that system but I was broke, living on my own, and I needed money. That was the most valuable thing I owned that would be worth something to someone else and could be easily sold.
In all actuality my class at University is currently reviewing a chapter on convergence and how a company like Sony worked to release the game Spiderman 3 with the new PS3 all at the same time the movie was set to be released. This was obviously done on purpose to introduce the new tech to the consumer (us) and at the same time promote the other mediums. They even went so far as to use the same font in all of their brand logos just to subconsciously marry them all together in the mind of the consumer.
In sticking to the old tech, during my 50+ years on this planet there have been more than a dozen cartridge game consoles. Below is a list of the more popular ones that I remember and this list doesn’t even include the handheld ones.
Atari 2600, 5200, & 7800
Nintendo ES & N64
Fairchild Channel F
Now with convergence and the push for new technologies there are only two gaming consoles that I am aware of and those are the Sony PlayStation and the Microsoft XBox. I am not even sure what Nintendo is using anymore since they changed to the Switch, which is a handheld unit and not a console. If there is another, outside of these, it is so far off the beaten path that it doesn’t have a horse in the running. Out of the long list of cartridge game consoles there are only two contenders now and both of them use discs to retain their software.
Although, as you probably already concluded, I am a fan of the cartridges but I don’t believe the gaming industry will ever revert to those again; although, if they were thinking of reducing their carbon footprint they could go to flash drive games. They are RAM (Random Accessible Memory) based so they could be backed up. They could also be password protected, or married to the console it is played on first, so that someone couldn’t just make copies and they are much smaller so packaging would be less. The only drawback would be the people who would lose them and have to buy the game again.
The access in a cartridge or flash drive running through a USB 3.1 connection can be as fast as 10 Gbps, which would be much faster than any DVD (10 Mbps) or Blu-Ray (36 Mbps) disc. This chart shows the difference in opening a certain program using a HDD, SSD, or a Flash Drive. The Flash Drive wins…hands down. Look at Solid State HDD shown here. Those statistics are obviously better and faster than even the best standard gaming eSATA HDD with 256MB of cache. Perhaps I am just being nostalgic or it might be a better idea to go back to technology like this.
So my wife and I patronized Dave & Buster’s for my first time ever this past Saturday. I have to be honest, I am not sure I liked it as much as when we went to Lucky Strike in Novi. Here’s the thing…Dave and Buster’s has every popular game known to mankind that is available right now. They even cater to the nostalgic and the novice players in a pretty fantastic way but the only reason that I would not rate my experience as a 9 or 10 is because I prefer playing in an environment that isn’t so busy. I’m just not a “crowd” person…per se, but that is the ONLY reason.
For the most part I found that the environment is incredibly family friendly…at least at the time we went. We stopped in to the one on 7 Mile Road at about 15:30 hrs. About $120.00 later, which included the tip, we left. Now, that total involves drinks, food, and games so don’t think this place is expensive. We just went a little overboard is all. The cuisine is “bar” food. The drinks are where they get you but I thought that the bar looked pretty nice. Pricing for the game cards is standard, I guess. I didn’t do the math on any of the games. The card records points and each game requests X amount of points for each play. This was the same theme that was at Lucky Strike.
I wasn’t too surprised, even with all of the reading that I have been doing lately on gaming, that the crowd consisted mostly of people between the ages of 4 and 60. Obviously there were a plethora of children there. With them were their parents who were mostly in their 30’s. There were only a handful of people my age (around 50). I didn’t speak with any of them but I did corner a few of the children who were playing some of the more violent games and one father whose daughters were playing my new favorite game Halo. I introduced myself and indicated to them what I was studying at school.
Ron was there with his two daughters Elisa (8) and Monique (7) who were busy playing Halo. The game itself was incredible. There are two large screens and positions for four total players. The players are working in tandem and can play on either screen. There were two other children who were older than these two girls sitting on the right side. Elisa was sitting in the second seat from the left and she was “killing it”. I asked Ron how long she had been playing this game and he said since she was about 4 or 5 she started gaming in general but he keeps it alive at his home where they play Halo and other FPS games. I inquired about the violence in the game and if he thought that was too much for a child and he indicated that he has explained that it is a game to his children and not something that happens in reality.
I didn’t catch the names of the two boys I interviewed. They were teenagers from what I could tell, but too young to drive was my guess. I also asked them about their feelings regarding the violence in certain video games. They were both playing Alien and as you may already be able to establish, based on the movie, this is just a game of killing (see the video below). Needless to say, coming from two teenage boys, you can imagine their satisfaction with the game and the violence. They wouldn’t have it any other way. Of course, I tend to agree with them as those types of games attract my attention too.
Although this blog is wrapping itself around the idea of people who are over the age of 50 and still gaming I will still say that this place is a good place to go to experience some pretty good games. I would take the family there at least once a month. As I mentioned, they have games for pretty much every type of gamer. They even have the largest Pac-Man and Space Invaders games I have ever seen not to mention the larger than human size Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots game. Unfortunately it was out of order so we didn’t have a chance to play it. Overall, I give this place an 8 out of 10 for the environment and excellent choice of games they have. I find it better than the old arcades I used to go to but that is mostly because I wasn’t able to drink in those. Not that drinking makes it more fun…just more adult.
So for people in their 50’s gaming can be hard on the hands. For me, I have worked with my hands all my life. Not rigorously, but I have used my hands to do a lot of work throughout the years like carpentry, I used to work on my own cars, construction, I substituted as a volunteer Fireman for a little while, and I used to do a lot of Karate (Tang Soo Do). So my hands have seen some use. In fact I have broken many bones in them from karate, getting them smashed under vehicle parts, and crushed from demolition jobs. So using my hands now, as I grow a little older, and depending on the weather, can be a task.
What it boils down to is the controllers. I am very partial to using a keyboard and a mouse to control the action on the screen. I also like to use the larger controllers like steering wheels or a nice joystick that has quite a few programmable buttons (like a flight stick). I am not admonishing the console games…in fact I will be writing about a few console games in the future. It is a preference, but when you have as many miles on you as I do you tend to want to play games that allow you to have fun and not get all cramped up or feel it the next day in your bones.
Console gaming requires the use and mastering of a smaller controlling unit whereas you could also purchase a unit of the like for your PC gaming you don’t have to. There are a number of alternative controlling ideas out there for PC gaming. I visited the Dell website to check on a few options and it appears there are well over 50 different options just on their site alone. Alienware, Corsair, Logitech, and Razer are a majority of the options. They range in price from $30 to over $200. Mostly the differences I noted are the prominently raised keys. My assumption is they are more heavy duty than a standard keyboard. Now, I have to admit that I haven’t broken a keyboard yet, but they are making them much more flimsy nowadays. Tech Radar suggests the keyboards from the list below.
Logitech G513. …
Cooler Master MasterSet MS120. …
Corsair K63 Wireless. …
HyperX Alloy Elite. …
Corsair K95 RGB Platinum. …
Razer Cynosa Chroma. …
Corsair K68 RGB. The snack-proof gaming keyboard. …
SteelSeries Apex M750. Great for gaming, just OK for everything else.
There are even special gaming mouses (mice?) too. There are several that are rated as being the best, but I have found that these fancy mice are individual specific. When you go out to purchase any controller for your PC or Mac you should experience the unit and not just take the word of some Salesperson. Best Buy is a good place to do that. I found a nice list of some preferred units and I posted it below. They are quite fancy.
Logitech G502 – Highest Native DPI Mouse. …
Razer DeathAdder Chroma – Best Budget Mouse. …
Corsair Scimitar RGB – Most Programmable Buttons. …
Razer Naga Hex V2 – Another mouse for MOBA Games. …
Corsair Sabre RGB – Budget FPS Gaming Mouse.
Personally I prefer wireless controllers. It doesn’t matter if it is console or PC. I am not one for being tethered to anything. Not that I am walking around my office with my mouse and keyboard in hand I just prefer the look. The largest issue, as you can guess, is if the power runs out in the middle of a game.
I do find it strange that the XBox 360 allows the use of a USB keyboard with their “computer” but you cannot modify the controls to play games with it. Personally I feel this is a market they should look into. Since I can plug my XBox into any device that takes an HDMI connection it would just be an area they could possibly gain a few more acolytes for their console.
This is where the PS4 blows XBox out of the water (again). They do allow for control via keyboard. They even have specific suggestions for which ones to use and they have games that allow them. PS4 suggests the Logitech G19 Gaming Keyboard and the HORI Tactical Assault Commander Pro. The games that they allow are in the list below. You can see that some of them are made ONLY for the keyboard.
Final Fantasy XIV
Elder Scrolls Online (keyboard only)
Neverwinter (keyboard only)
DC Universe Online (you can only use the keyboard)
The website below is a good list for the PS4 and how to set it up for control of this fashion.
Now, no matter what your preference in the end, it will all boil down to what games are even available for the choice you make. Obviously consoles would be the better choice just for variety alone. My father passed away about 8 years ago. He was 87 when he died and he played games on his PC up until his death. He loved Myst and Flight Simulator mostly but he wasn’t a fan of console games. He verbally mentioned that the controllers were too hard for him to use. Now, not growing up using a controller I can see that. Overall it is the preference of the player and what they either want to play or what they are willing to play. With all of the retro gaming sites that have games available for downloading there is a wide variety/library of choices. For the best graphics and gaming experiences though, excluding MMOG games, then consoles are more than likely the way to go.
You can probably tell that I have a definite preference toward making the controls easier for the older generation. I mean, these companies should respect the pioneers of the gaming industry. Even though we are older and may not have as much time to game…we are older and have some (more) expendable income than we did when we first started gaming. I’m just saying, they can cater to the target audience, but they should still consider the loyal audience too. I have been gaming my whole life and the only way I will stop is if I physically can’t do it anymore.
So without rejecting the theme I am trying to formulate here I want to continue with gaming for people over 50. In doing so I don’t want to reject the classics. This blog post discusses a few classic games and will mix in some topics we have been discussing in the class I am currently taking at the University of Michigan this semester. One of the topics will be the ability to manipulate these games through their controllers as related to interactivity. I know, you already know about the controllers…joystick, buttons, a trackball or even a gun so my point is not to bore you with the basics but to mix in the classic argument of interaction and maybe a little about challenge and the objectives of each game discussed.
Pong, (Ms.)Pac-Man, Defender, and Frogger… some of the mindless classics played by millions of kids, and adults, around the world with nothing more than a joystick and maybe a single button for the purpose of jumping or some other linear action. These games appealed to people of my age, and hell, why shouldn’t they have. They were fresh off the block. Nothing out there was ever like them before. People who are now around the age of 50 were the target audience for these games then. The idea behind the simplicity was in that a frog should only do a few basic movements in order to cross the road and they wanted to keep these games simple. The question comes back to would a game like this be considered challenging given that the actual objectives were so mundane?
The interaction for these new “students” of video gaming was in the give and take. I gave these games a quarter and they took my three lives, which pissed me off enough to put in another quarter to continue to get better at these games. The interaction of these early games and gamers was mostly in the attitude that, myself and so many others retained, I was going to beat “you”. You have to think about the fact that we were the children of those who fought in WWII or Korea. We weren’t hard, but we were raised harder than the kids today but not as tough as those who raised us. We retained part of the “you mess with me and I’ll kill ya” gene which was just enough to make us come back for more and more “punishment” from these inanimate objects.
We weren’t an entirely different breed than the kids growing up today, we were just limited on our challenges back then. Doing 10 pull-ups, climbing the gym class rope up twenty feet, and beaning another child in the head with a rubber Dodgeball were the best we had then. Although I LOVED the Dodgeball challenge, mostly because I was fortunate enough to be good at it, I still wanted more challenges in life though. Kids now have such an extensive amount of challenges that I would have never fathomed what was to explode from a square “ball” bouncing back and forth across a black background to which would be deflected by a vertical “racket”. In the beginning the extremely limited interactivity of games has blow up to something much more now.
In review of any of the original games objectives, one can see that they couldn’t have been more simple. That wasn’t the crux of the idea behind these early games. They were supposed to be easy. The idea was to draw in the masses with an easy concept and keep their attention with the challenge of completing these simple objectives with the hope of completing the game, if there was even a completion to them (and in many cases I don’t believe there actually was one). If there was, then the completion would be the ultimate goal of the game. I can’t tell you how many quarters I spent on these games. I would run home from school, go out on my paper route, deliver my papers and then collect money from “just enough” customers to make sure my papers were paid for, then I would head right up to the arcade with the rest of the money.
For any younger readers, you have to understand these games were “out there” and there wasn’t anything like them that we had ever seen. Playing them was cutting edge. Relate it to the over 200 VR games that PS4 has out now. It was as exciting as that “new” technology is. (VR tech has actually been out for many years but is just now catching on…kind of like 3D movies, been there for years, never quite made it, but they keep coming back). The interaction with these games was, obviously through the controls laid out in front of us, but it was also psychological in that we wanted, dare I say needed, to beat these machines.
These games were simple, challenging, and they had obvious objectives to a final goal. For us “old timers” these were the epitome of the computer age. Overall, with the classic games, I don’t believe there was very much in the way of physical connection to the games. At least not like the gaming industry is creating for us now with technology like VR and the full immersion VR that is soon to come from companies like Virtuix Omni who will, hopefully, work with PS to integrate their tech to the games PS has. This is the new wave of the future which I hope catches on in a big way because after experiencing it first hand…it is incredible and needs to become the next big thing.
I used to have a small game library for the PC. Only a few dozen games. Games like Ages of Empires, Red Alert 2, Leisure Suit Larry, Quake II, and Tomb Raider, but nothing compared to the game Descent or Descent 2. Recently I ventured off to the University of Michigan campus to see their video gaming archive facility. I found Descent in their archives and I played it, fell back in love with it, and decided that I wanted to get this game back. Now the part that comes into play is this. I used to…past tense…have these games but recently (two months ago) I decided that was never going to acquire a Windows based machine again in my life so I pitched them all in the trash.
Well, because I have so much expendable cash on hand (can you sense the sarcasm?) I went out to look for these games online to buy or download. Long story short I wasn’t able to find them but I did come across Descent III which I didn’t know was out there. Being that I am a Mac person I looked up the emulator that the University of Michigan uses to see if there was a Mac version and “by golly” there is.
So, in bringing more to this blog regarding the past I uncovered a mess of information. There is a site out there dedicated to Descent 3, oddly enough it is just http://www.descent3.com/. How crazy is that? There is a link on their website to what I will consider to be Blackbeard’s Treasure Chest. This site allows for the downloading of older games. I haven’t checked it all out yet but just the thought is fantastic. I believe that I can purchase (unfortunately) anything I want from this site. The site is https://www.gog.com/ – Good Old Games. It is a library of gaming wealth.
So, for today’s Blog, I will be reviewing a little about the levels and perspective of Descent 3 (1999 Interplay – Parallax Software). The perspective of this game is a three-point perspective. It allows for full 360 degree play. That perspective has remained the same throughout the entire Descent series. The tri-axial movement of the ship was cutting edge in 1996 when the game first came out. I remember having to upgrade my computer just to run this game. It still looks good even now. For one of, if not the, first first person shooter games I ever played I still think this game is incredible.
The Bot that helps out portrays an omniscient viewpoint of the entire world and helps guide the Imperial Defender throughout the story. For this game there are 15 missions (levels) that must be passed. If you find the right items along the way there are several secret levels that can be uncovered to play as well. Personally I would classify this as a standard action-adventure game. The levels are introduced individually and successively. Each level must be passed in order to move on to the next level. The game runs a storyline and each level is introduced by the computer explaining the objectives and what threats are apparent on the mission.
Arguably I would venture to say this is one of the most viable games of all time. It introduces the storyline to gaming, there is continual action throughout, and it is really fun to play. This is a good game for us older people because it is “simple” in that there is just the basic theory “seek & destroy”. I find that games with this simple theory behind them are much more fun for me at the age I am now. It was a blast when I was in my 20’s and 30’s but now I have the nostalgia of the play as well as not having to submerge myself into a game that requires continual play. No offense to games like Fortnite but I just don’t have that kind of time as most people my age don’t.
I have included some links below. One of the links is for a video that shows the transition from level to level to show what I was explaining above.
Ok, so as quiet as it’s kept, there is a video gaming center on the campus at the University of Michigan. I am not going to publicly announce what the building is because I want to respect what they have amassed within their walls and I want to be able to go back and use that room again, so hush is the word. Although it is a public facility and anyone can use it, it’s just not for everyone. The largest reason behind the fact that this place isn’t made public knowledge is because if it were the items contained within this facility would, more than likely, not be in as good of condition as they are and everything appeared to be in really good condition.
When I walked in I immediately noticed some vintage consoles and then all of the games began coming into focus. Not hundreds…thousands of games. Now, of course, not every PC game was in the archives…that wouldn’t be possible, but there were so many there that I had and remembered. Some of my most favorite were the Descent series (original and II), Dragons Lair, Time Commando, Tomb Raider, and several Star Wars games. Personally, being in the over 50 crowd I enjoyed the games made for PC more. I think it is mostly because I was able to adjust the controls, use a joystick or mouse, and make the keyboard perform to my aspirations.
The emulator being used appeared to be called DOS Box 0.73 and it made me wish to God that I had kept all of my former PC games, which I did up until last year (yeah, I’m still kicking myself in the butt for that one). Especially Descent and Descent II. Those games were “the bomb” back when Windows 95 was “king”. Now although I was enamored with the PC games there were ALL of the other options. They had stand up game cabinets, Nintendo, X-Box, and, of course, PS4 with the virtual reality controls. (Insert Angle sounds here).
I played Doom on the PS4 system and IT WAS AWESOME!!! So, in keeping with the theme of my blog I have to make some comments on their system. The controls were pretty confusing. I only say that because there is a definite learning curve within this game using the VR headset and controls. The immersion into the game itself was pretty good. I enjoyed the view point; although, the VR headset was a little blurry at times. Now, in their defense, I didn’t take the time to see if there were any adjustments on the set. I just wanted to play. A problem I saw was in the tethering. There is a hard line attached to the headset but the game requires you to look around. 360 degrees, meaning that if you are in full FPS mode you may not be thinking about the cable that is slowly wrapping around your legs. We have wireless technology, I say, why not use it? Don’t get me wrong, I am SERIOUSLY considering buying into the PS4 now just because of this little 30 minutes of my life (which I consider quite well spent).
Prior to playing Descent or Doom I encountered two young students who were actually playing the game Candyland. I wish I had taken a picture of them but I have some of the audio on my phone from our conversation. This is relevant to me because I am in a class at the University of Michigan currently where we read an essay where an individual (Richard Rouse III) stated that this game wasn’t a game at all because it had a predisposition based on the cards and that all outcomes were predestined and this made it “not a game”. So, I am not even exaggerating right now as I, apparently, was in the right place at the right time. As I said, I asked them if I could “interview” them briefly.
I asked why they chose to play that specific game. The young lady stated that she hadn’t played it since she was six and the young man said that he had never played it. Before I approached them I heard their banter, and they were having a lot of fun and laughing about the game. After I approached them and was in conversation with them another student (from an entirely different University – I know because I also interviewed him as well later on) began telling me the origin of the game and how a nurse created it because the kids in her “program” needed something to do. In full disclosure it was Eleanor Abbott, who was a victim of polio that invented the game as a pastime for children who were recuperating from the same disease in the 1940’s.
Now I could probably write for hours about how great this place is but I figured I would just post a few pictures of the archive. As I mentioned there are tons of games in the archive. I will definitely be visiting this place again. Hopefully, after my daughter grows up a little more I will be able to take her here to experience some of the classics.
Ok so for most of us over 50 people we don’t have the time to get out there and play video games. Not to mention that some of us may not even know where to go to play them. Outside of Dave and Busters there aren’t a whole plethora of places to go to play but this past Friday my wife and I went to Lucky Strike in Novi and experienced the Star Wars Battle Pod for the first time. I know this game has been out for almost four years now but this was the first time I have ever seen or experienced it.
The Pod itself was just amazing to look at even from the outside. The interior was even more impressive with its 180 degree curved display. This machine has a retail cost of $35,000.00 out the door and is available for purchase by ANY individual with delivery and set up options. The total weight of the game is just under half a ton (845 lbs.). The interior is set up for a single individual with seating for one through a privacy door on the left hand side (shown in the picture above). There is enough room for a single observer who might be able to video some of the play for you. If you would like to purchase one feel free to contact Bandai.
The game has multiple scenarios of different adventures thus different ships that one would evidently fly, but without getting into too much of the game itself I wanted to discuss the controls of the game. They are lacking in my opinion.
Apparently Bandai wanted to keep this as simple as they possibly could. There are no pitch or yaw controls and as you can see in the picture above this is just a simple 1980’s style forward/reverse joystick on the left and aim and fire joystick on the right. The controllers are supposed to make one feel like they are in control of the game they are playing; however, this game is pre-designated. There is a set pattern for where the ship will fly, what ships you are allowed to go after, and how the story will play out. I tried to steer the ship but the game wasn’t having it I began losing interest. Don’t get me wrong, the experience of the game is wonderful but if I am flying a ship I would prefer to be allowed to venture where I want and pick my own battles.
The purpose of the joysticks are to allow for interaction and control over the game but when the game has it’s own agenda the controls don’t quite appear that important. The look, feel, variety of scenes and design of the game are wonderful, but I feel it could have used a little more. I mean for $35k a little rumble in the seat or controllers would have been nice, but alas that wasn’t an option. It is a good game to play, again don’t get me wrong…I will probably go back and spend more money on it. I just feel they could have stepped it up a little more. We have so many options out there in 2019 and I think that there are many Gamers who would appreciate alternate options to make the game more immersible. They could allow for “simple” game play for the novice or, given more controlling features like additional flight controls, weapon controls, start up options, flight check features, operative fuel gauges and other gauges for effect, or maybe even a “Siriesque” Droid that one might give commands to against a display that might show certain damage of the vessel as the fight plays out.
Overall I would rate this game as a 7 (out of 10) and only losing three points for the controls and lack of some type of rumble pack. The game is great otherwise and, as mentioned, I will be back to play it again.
I added this video to give an idea of game play. Trust me, this video doesn’t do this Pod any justice because it doesn’t capture the full screen at all. Note that the volume is pretty quiet in there though.